Episode Transcript
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[00:00:00] Anisa: No, it's a good, maybe we spend too much time on the mind as we advise not to do. [00:00:05] We spend
[00:00:05] Marco: too much time on the mind and not enough time on the no mind and we're just
[00:00:09] Anisa: venturing into [00:00:10] the no mind.
that's exactly the proportion in our lives. But
[00:00:13] Marco: this was meant to be about [00:00:15] heaven and what
[00:00:15] Anisa: heaven means. So let's talk about that, I can, I'm [00:00:20] postulating here that. There's a place that you go to, [00:00:25] and you go to it when you're asleep, and it's [00:00:30] different. And sleep
[00:00:31] Marco: naturally is a shutting off of senses.
[00:00:33] Anisa: Yeah. It's a shutting off of senses. It's a shutting [00:00:35] off of senses. So it's a place you go to. We are [00:00:40] supposing the existence or non existence of a place a [00:00:45] place where your senses are just so big and loud they can't make it through, a [00:00:50] place like the the eye of the needle, you have to enter the eye of the needle, [00:00:55] all the weight, shed all the weight, shed all the bulky parts of yourself to [00:01:00] be able to make it through that hole, through that tiny little hole. And really [00:01:05] I think an easy thing that people can relate to and I [00:01:10] don't even want to say most people because I think that in modern days a lot of people [00:01:15] are not really dreaming anymore or don't.
I don't know. I'm so [00:01:20] distant from that place that I hear it all the time. It's Oh, I don't dream. Oh my God, you [00:01:25] dream? It's such an old thing. You're so old school. [00:01:30] But yeah, it's like, it's people are surprised by [00:01:35] if they hear dreams and their intricacies and their You [00:01:40] know, richness, and it's I've, not in my experience,
[00:01:43] Marco: their [00:01:45] vividness.
[00:01:45] Anisa: Their vividness. A lot of people if they dream, also, you could see [00:01:50] it even in your own dreams, where, when you're really worked up[00:01:55] your dreams are very close to reality. That there is not much [00:02:00] richness to it, it's like a, it's like a replaying of something, or a playing of [00:02:05] something that's about to happen, but anyway, not deep diving. Dreams are dreams
[00:02:08] Marco: are a good indication. [00:02:10] Dreams are a good indication. Of what could possibly be. At the end of the day, this whole exercise is [00:02:15] speculative. It is. It's speculative based on certain things that we, we've heard. And [00:02:20] perhaps we've experienced through dreams.
This is, a dream is a window [00:02:25] into the no mind or extremely decreased [00:02:30] activity of mind. Another one is through the.
[00:02:33] Anisa: Say hi, buddy.[00:02:35] Oh, he got worked up. Easy, love. Easy, baby. He's cute.[00:02:40]
Oh,
good boy. You're a good, friendly boy.[00:02:45]
[00:02:45] Marco: Got it a little bit. Worked out in the end.
Have a great day. [00:02:50] Come on, baby. Louie. What are you, falling in line now? Oh, [00:02:55] it's a boy, yeah. Okay, alright.
[00:02:56] Anisa: That makes sense then.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Marco: Louie. He's just...
[00:03:03] Anisa: There you go. I guess he's [00:03:05] going with you. He's our dog now.
[00:03:08] Marco: Okay, love. Yeah, you found a new [00:03:10] girlfriend, huh? Come on, baby. Hey, stay. Stay.[00:03:15]
[00:03:15] Anisa: Crazy boy.
There. Yeah, so beyond dreams. Let's [00:03:20] just try to wrap up because
[00:03:21] Marco: I'm getting tired. One of the other indications are...[00:03:25] The dreamlike hallucinations that come from psychedelics, [00:03:30] deeply meditative, but also on the easier route. Meditation takes a lot of time and we've [00:03:35] had great influential figures from Buddha to Jesus to Moses to [00:03:40] Mohammed.
That tell us about this area, when you [00:03:45] eliminate this relationship
[00:03:46] Anisa: with ego, with sentient. So prayer, meditation chants,[00:03:50]
[00:03:50] Marco: very easy for people who lack discipline, this sort of crash course is a [00:03:55] psychedelic trip. But also does the same thing of dealing a blow to... [00:04:00] I
[00:04:00] Anisa: was going to say quite literally blow your mind.
Yeah, sure. But this is what it [00:04:05] is, yeah,
[00:04:05] Marco: and then you fall into this dreamlike state. It's where hallucinations are [00:04:10] possible and plenty. Yeah. And we've seen these things. And [00:04:15] we, there, there is a leap of faith for all of us who [00:04:20] are suffering from... A constant nagging voice that doesn't shut off at all.
[00:04:25] Suffering from too many minds. From the diagnosis of never no mind, always [00:04:30] mind. And it's very straining on the, on you. You're never [00:04:35] efficient, you're never, it's always chaotic. It's always on. , as you mentioned, you barely dream [00:04:40] anymore. Your sleep isn't high quality.
Because you struggle with shutting [00:04:45] off all your senses and even the master sense of the mind. And
[00:04:49] Anisa: just to be [00:04:50] clear, mythologically, the places that we've been talking about is [00:04:55] heaven, this is what we mythologically have known as heaven, as [00:05:00] nirvana, the Buddhists call nirvana, it's this place of no mind.
[00:05:05] It's this place of complete quietude. It's this place that is Again, to [00:05:10] contrast it with our with our experience of being alive and [00:05:15] aware, it's this place of permanence, it's this place of [00:05:20] silence, versus this place of impermanence, this temporary experience [00:05:25] that we're having, this loud and bright and all, titillating [00:05:30] experience that we're having at every second.
Versus this quiet, [00:05:35] intemporal, permanent, silent, place [00:05:40] where dreams take place. Where you're at [00:05:45] one. With something else, with something, that's one with something bigger. These are the [00:05:50] patterns that we
[00:05:50] Marco: hear even from people
[00:05:51] Anisa: who, This is what scripture describes in so many [00:05:55] different ways, in so many different languages, through so many cultures.
Describe,
[00:05:58] Marco: it's described as [00:06:00] something rewarding, attractive, gardens and rivers. As
[00:06:04] Anisa: [00:06:05] something un rewarding, like not one to one the reward is unlimited in a way for [00:06:10] what you give, like what you get is just an unlimited. It's of no bounds. No, unbounded.
[00:06:15] Yeah, that's what
[00:06:15] Marco: I was thinking. We don't quite understand what it means, but it is worth [00:06:20] more than any reward, than theoretically. And [00:06:25] again, this exercise is an exploration and speculation, and it [00:06:30] requires a leap of faith. Hence the spiritual and religious nature, that is [00:06:35] Udo. We try to explore this.
There's a lot of speculation. We [00:06:40] dive through a lot of scripture and what our ancestors had to say. Because [00:06:45] we need to understand what might be on the other side [00:06:50] in order for us to attempt to have a go at it. But [00:06:55] it's very attractive and in theory it's more attractive than all the pleasures that ego [00:07:00] can get you.
And we have to be... Clear in [00:07:05] assessing what that means. How could nothingness be more attractive than all the [00:07:10] pleasures, than allness? That, that all the weapons somethingness in Satan's arsenal? [00:07:15] Think of the Devon seven deadly sins. How attractive is the, [00:07:20] as gluttony in a time of hunger and you're about to feast.
How attractive is [00:07:25] lust and need? I say anything about lust and its attractive nature [00:07:30] about, Temptation in general, how attractive is that? Now, we know how [00:07:35] attractive pleasure can be. We know that. We experience it. [00:07:40] We suffer through it, if you will. But we don't know what nothingness [00:07:45] is. All these people, all these historic figures, [00:07:50] important figures, that have built nations and nations great.[00:07:55]
They are, they're all telling, from all walks of life, not just in the Abrahamic [00:08:00] philosophy that we perhaps are bred and born within, and we emphasize a little [00:08:05] bit, but all walks of life. There is this [00:08:10] explanation of... breaking from the shackles of mind, that gets you into something very [00:08:15] attractive. And it's righteous.
It's counterintuitive. [00:08:20] And it takes a leap of faith because we here, what we have [00:08:25] here on this side, on the side of pleasure, we
[00:08:27] Anisa: can experience. Because you have to [00:08:30] relinquish something that you can experience. And it's very attractive. So you have to relinquish that [00:08:35] pleasure and the potential for pleasure for something that's unknown, vague, [00:08:40] impossible to describe.
Even by the people who have been there.
[00:08:44] Marco: It's [00:08:45] inexplicable. By nature. It cannot be spoken. Because you can't have this rationalizing mind to
[00:08:48] Anisa: describe it. And very [00:08:50] famously people would come to the Buddha with a question and Buddha would just stare at them [00:08:55] silently. Hey. Because... Stay.
There is nothing to say. Stay. [00:09:00] Stay. There is nothing to say about it, and everything that you say, everything [00:09:05] that we say, again it's just always going to be a bastardization. It's always going to be [00:09:10] wrong. It's always going to be cheapened. Cheapened. Knock off. Knock off. Yeah. It's always, [00:09:15] again you're using a tool that is our mind and language, which is another great tool that we [00:09:20] have, but you're using a tool.
to explain something outside of itself, and it's just, [00:09:25] you can't quite do it.
[00:09:26] Marco: And this is quite the indication of how beautiful it may be, [00:09:30] because people have come out, and they've come up with [00:09:35] really beautiful, usually poetic, descriptions. And[00:09:40]
We think of Rumi, we think of Ibn Arabi, we think of the
[00:09:43] Anisa: Buddha. Think of anybody who's [00:09:45] ever been inspired, has come from that place. Whether or not they call it that or they know [00:09:50] that, any inspiration comes from a place of no mind. Comes [00:09:55] from a place beyond that, comes from a dreamlike experience.
[00:09:58] Marco: Yes, and [00:10:00] that is indicative.
If this is a bastardization, and [00:10:05] it's beautiful, and it's poetry, and gospel, It's [00:10:10] rhythmic, it's
[00:10:10] Anisa: melodic, it's poetic. It still
[00:10:13] Marco: cannot [00:10:15] explain how beautiful it really is. This [00:10:20] hanging out in heaven. The place of [00:10:25] reward that is brought about by God. And [00:10:30] all we have is speculation. That's all we have.[00:10:35]
But I think it's enough. It's enough for us to give it a try. And [00:10:40] this is why things... Having a tool, a ritual, [00:10:45] like the Zerodose that we have at uDOSE with the[00:10:50] psychedelic trip, , to give us a glimpse [00:10:55] is, it was necessary for me to have this glimpse [00:11:00] of what These influential, important, beautiful figures in our [00:11:05] ancestral trail had to come and tell us.
But it took, for me at [00:11:10] least, a glimpse of this unity, of this love, of this overwhelming [00:11:15] joy that exists with a decreased mind, a sense of awe [00:11:20] and beauty, and the duality of significance and insignificance [00:11:25] that you feel at the same time.
It took that glimpse [00:11:30] of heaven, that crash course, because I was undeserving in a way. [00:11:35] I wasn't disciplined enough, and I still am not. We're talking about a speculation, an [00:11:40] exploration into a kicking off us [00:11:45] individually and as a larger group, as a community, to attempt to [00:11:50] put together a set of tools that help us in fighting.
[00:11:55] Ego, in controlling ego, and in getting to phases, [00:12:00] disciplined phases, of no mind. And the rituals of [00:12:05] psilocybin are there to help us, but the intent and the [00:12:10] highly recommended route is to have the discipline you need to meditate and actually get to [00:12:15] no mind rather quickly. And that takes a lot of discipline, it takes [00:12:20] a lot of effort.
The larger the community you sit within, the [00:12:25] easier it is for you. Because we are social creatures. And if we do this together, we have a better chance.[00:12:30]
[00:12:30] Anisa: Said. I think that's a good place to, to wrap up. [00:12:35] Okay. It gets to the it's a good... To get shallow. There
[00:12:39] Marco: are a few things [00:12:40] I still want to say, but I think we should stop
[00:12:42] Anisa: here.
Maybe those things, you could put in [00:12:45] writing? Or maybe, it's... Or have a recording separately?
[00:12:48] Marco: When we dive into the spiritual [00:12:50] too, this is just an introduction. We just brought up the routine and and how that excites
[00:12:54] Anisa: the [00:12:55] mind. What would you like to discuss further? We could write it down, maybe bring it up next [00:13:00] time. I'm going to discuss
[00:13:01] Marco: the boringness of sitting and [00:13:05] meditating and trying to get to silence. The
[00:13:07] Anisa: boringness of life in general, disciplined life. And that's [00:13:10]
[00:13:10] Marco: how that may rationally be unattractive.
But again, [00:13:15] you're rationalizing here. And your rational, [00:13:20] egotistic mind It's naturally going to want
[00:13:23] Anisa: to persuade you not to go. What about all the [00:13:25] pleasures that I can give you?
[00:13:27] Marco: Okay. And I wanted to talk about that. I [00:13:30] wanted to talk about the happiness that comes from ego, from the taking in and [00:13:35] giving in to the dopamine and the serotonin, versus the joy and [00:13:40] love that comes from
[00:13:42] Anisa: oxytocin.
I would like to discuss oxytocin a little bit [00:13:45] more as part of the reward, because we didn't bring that on. Yeah. But [00:13:50] maybe we could have that, we could have a we have an idea of how to [00:13:55] incorporate that later on to this. Okay.
